Discussion on the FSM- keep it clean/respectful

That's funny!!!  It really does just bring you right back here if you paste it into the search bar on google!!


Just paste the link into your address bar, MoS, instead of the search tool. 


Good stuff!

R2, Do not assume inspiration or infallibility of the documents, with the intent of attempting to prove the inspiration or infallibility of the documents. Do not say the bible is inspired or infallible simply because you, someone, it claims to be. This is circular reasoning, is it not ?

I suppose those who feel the bible is stricly the word of God, (infallible) as dictated (?) is going to have a problem with these discrepancies.  Not so much me.

I find it very similar to the God is omnicient arguement.  As I said before, He is not.  There are definately things He cannot do, so, by strict definition omniscience is out.  So also is the absolute adherence to "every word" of the bible.  With all of the massive manuscript evidence you would think there would be discrepancies.  There are passages that are disputed but no discrepancy is of any doctrinal significance (i.e., none would alter basic Christian doctrine).



MoS

Look, I'm done with the whole "contradiction" thing.  Its plainly obvious that people only see what they want to see.  A faithful man will look at the contradictions and reconcile them to his faith.  He'll say that they "shouldn't be taken literally" or "it is perfectly normal for those types of errors to happen" or "they don't affect the doctrine" or, the best one, "you have to interpret it like this".

For the vast majority of Christians, who don't subscribe to the "infallibility" of the Bible, it isn't a remote issue.  The average Christian doesn't look at the Bible and expect it to be a perfect reproduction of the word of God.  He understands that man is involved and therefore there are bound to be errors.  It is that same involvement of man, though, that makes the Bible unbelievable to the unfaithful.  If errors were made on the "minor stuff" then how can you be so sure they weren't made on the "major stuff" like the doctrine and the life of Jesus?  Heck, for that matter, how do you know that the vast majority of it wasn't just flat made up?

This, to me, is the debate we should be having.

Unfortunately, that debate, which is pure and intriguing, gets sidetracked completely when you come across the "literal" Christians.  Those that believe their book is the True Word of God without error.  That the Bible, in its purist form (the KJV for some ), is truly infallible.

When that view is taken, it completely undermines the intellectual discussion that SHOULD be taking place in regards to this topic and replaces it with superstition, silliness and outright lunacy.

If errors were made on the "minor stuff" then how can you be so sure they weren't made on the "major stuff" like the doctrine and the life of Jesus?  Heck, for that matter, how do you know that the vast majority of it wasn't just flat made up?

This, to me, is the debate we should be having.

MANO: The Bible says God created the world in 6 days.  We KNOW it took billions of years for the earth to form.  It also says there was light before the sun and other stars existed.  Since the first chapter in the Bible is so wrong it is obiously all wrong, or at the very least untrustworthy.  It was written by man and is therefore unreliable.

LTS: Rub two sticks together and you will have light without the sun.  And it is possible the Genesis account is a simply way to explain that the universe has a Creator, and that creator is God.  I believe it is true.  Can you give me specific examples of where the Bible is wrong?

MANO:  No, it can't be disproven but it is so obviously untrue you must willingly deceive yourself to believe it.

LTS:  Man evolving from non-man can't be proven either but you believe that.

MANO:  WHAT?  THERE ARE MILLIONS OF EXAMPLES OF EVOLUTION, SO IT IS EASY TO INFER THAT IF IT HAPPENS ON A SMALL SCALE IT ALSO HAPPENS ON A LARGE SCALE, YOU DOLT!

<<RETURN TO PAGE 1 AND START ALL OVER> >


Its plainly obvious that people only see what they want to see.  A faithful man will look at the contradictions and reconcile them to his faith.  He'll say that they "shouldn't be taken literally" or "it is perfectly normal for those types of errors to happen" or "they don't affect the doctrine" or, the best one, "you have to interpret it like this".

I don't know why this bothers you so much.  Nearly every piece of literature has a single interpretation with a multitude of applications.  The Bible is the same.  There is only one right answer but many applications of the truth.  Every time these "contradictions" are mentioned I ask for examples... usually it requires a literal interpretation to produce a contradiction.  Those believers whoalways insist on a literal interpretation have done a great disservice to God because there are obvious uses of figures of speech, metaphor, simile, etc.  I don't expect to see a prostitute riding on the back of a large fire-breathing lizard with 7 heads and 10 horns at any time, and that one example should be enough to defeat anyone's argument about literal interpretation of the Bible.

I agree that discussion is pointless.  Really, this entire thread could be considered pointless because the bottom line is that "Its plainly obvious that people only see what they want to see.", whether you are a believer or unbeliever.  We have all chosen our path in life when it comes to faith and religion, and every single one of us applies faith when we make that choice.  I have no physical, tangible proof of God and believe anyway.  You have no physical, tangible disproof of God and disbelieve anyway.

But I have enjoyed getting to know people and have learned a great many things on this thread.  I certainly do not consider it pointless but I can understand if there are others who do.

Soon I'll go back a couple of pages and respond to 2k and ironman... now that the draft is concluded.  At least I kept my priorities in line over the past week!

And it is possible the Genesis account is a simply way to explain that the universe has a Creator, and that creator is God.

Certainly the most likely scenario, my friend.

Can you give me specific examples of where the Bible is wrong?

Yes.  Absolutely, but you will find a way to discredit them.  I can show you example after example after example of studies and verified scientific evidence that PROVES beyond only the merist shadow of a doubt that the Earth is over 4 billion years old and that the universe is over 13 billion years old.  We know this as surely as we know we exist.  I can make the philisophical argument that existence is, in itself, a myth therefore I cannot prove beyond all doubt that we truly exist, does that make it untrue?  Does it even make it reasonable to doubt it?

You can make a philosophical argument that the Earth may have been created in 6 days around 6000 years ago by some omnipotent being who decided to make it appear the universe was actually much older, but that doesn't lend it any more credence than my argument about existence.

LTS:  Man evolving from non-man can't be proven either but you believe that.

MANO:  WHAT?  THERE ARE MILLIONS OF EXAMPLES OF EVOLUTION, SO IT IS EASY TO INFER THAT IF IT HAPPENS ON A SMALL SCALE IT ALSO HAPPENS ON A LARGE SCALE, YOU DOLT!

Oh, the desire to get back into the evolution thing is so strong, but I just can't put myself through that frustration again!   Suffice it to say that I have inferred nothing from small scale alone, LTS.

I don't know why this bothers you so much.  Nearly every piece of literature has a single interpretation with a multitude of applications.

This is exactly why it bothers me, LTS!  If you were treating the Bible as a piece of literature, then we wouldn't have an issue, but you are treating it like a historical document but applying your interpretations to it. 

Every time these "contradictions" are mentioned I ask for examples... usually it requires a literal interpretation to produce a contradiction.

Well, of course!  You can't have a contradiction of a metaphor, LTS.  The issue arises with the faithful picking and choosing what is literal and what isn't.  Its easy to scoff at the 7 headed lizard and understand that its just a story, but then you want me to take the talking snake and forbidden fruit story literally!  Or you want me to believe that some guy built a boat that housed a pair of every creature on the planet, including insect and plantlife.  So why do you get to choose which parts are literal?

Really, this entire thread could be considered pointless because the bottom line is that "Its plainly obvious that people only see what they want to see.", whether you are a believer or unbeliever.  We have all chosen our path in life when it comes to faith and religion, and every single one of us applies faith when we make that choice.  I have no physical, tangible proof of God and believe anyway.  You have no physical, tangible disproof of God and disbelieve anyway.

I disagree.  This discussion is never pointless.  If it forces one person to educate themselves further or take themselves out of their comfort zone, then its worthwhile.  I don't think anyone has been converted over the past 18 months and however many hundreds of posts, but I guarantee that we've all learned some things during our time here.  I promise you that some very devout, hardcore Christians in this thread have questioned their beliefs at some point and I know for a fact that at least one of the non-religious has reflected over his faith and questioned his path thanks to the posts of people like yourself and MoS.

Its by those questions that we search for answers!  When we stop asking the questions, we become stagnant and that is what I fear most from religion.  It serves to answer questions with superstition instead of education.  It baffles the curious mind and stifles the inquisitive.  It begs for ignorance and prays for faith over reason.

Soon I'll go back a couple of pages and respond to 2k and ironman... now that the draft is concluded.  At least I kept my priorities in line over the past week!

Draft before God, LTS? 

[sigh]


Once again, I have apparently ended this thread. 

Ill make a post of random thoughts soon, i may aswell use this place to bounce around ideas. and im sure LTS will reply to us soon or some other brave soul :)

2k